ChaosMachine
New Member
please tell me this is correct. crossout on face down vampire lord. op chains deck dev virus. i chain compulsory evac. deck dev now does not resolve? and can deck dev be used on cards like fusilier while face down?
Deck Dev
- Thread starter ChaosMachine
- Start date
My thoughts:
Cards that are tributed while face-down remain face-down until they are placed in the Graveyard face-up, right? Doesn't it say somewhere that if you tribute a card when it's face down, you can check to see if it's an Appropriate tribute once it's face-up in the Graveyard? Wouldn't that mean that "Fusilier Dragon" is a valid tribute for "Deck Devastation Virus" if tributed while face-down no matter how it was summoned? Once the card is face-up in the Graveyard, it shows an original ATK of 2800, thus eligible for tribute with "Deck Devastation Virus".
I love situations like this that have no rulings or direction from UDE/Konami...
Cards that are tributed while face-down remain face-down until they are placed in the Graveyard face-up, right? Doesn't it say somewhere that if you tribute a card when it's face down, you can check to see if it's an Appropriate tribute once it's face-up in the Graveyard? Wouldn't that mean that "Fusilier Dragon" is a valid tribute for "Deck Devastation Virus" if tributed while face-down no matter how it was summoned? Once the card is face-up in the Graveyard, it shows an original ATK of 2800, thus eligible for tribute with "Deck Devastation Virus".
I love situations like this that have no rulings or direction from UDE/Konami...
Kyhotae said:
No the monster must be the correct one while it is on the field in order for it to satisfy the cost. If you have a face-up Dark Magician and DNA Transplant is active on the field changing him to Earth he can't be used as the cost for Deck Devastation because he is not a 2000+ Dark monster. The cost must be correct when it is offered. It doesn't matter what it will be when it is in the graveyard. I can tribute a Great Maju Garzett with a 2000+ ATK even though he'll be 0 in the graveyard.
OK, but what about if they're face-down. "Dark Magician" is not an EARTH-attribute monster until it's face-up. If it's tributed face-down, would that not satisfy the requirements for "Deck Devastation Virus" since it is considered face-down until it hits the Graveyard? Also, wouldn't a face-down "Great Maju Garzett" NOT fulfill the requirement since he has no ATK while face-down? If he's face-up, you can already see that he's got a high enough ATK, but face-down is another issue. Isn't that what the uncertainty is about?
Ok, so in there somewhere, if I'm not mistaken, you are saying that "Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast", if set w/o Tribute via it's effect, will NOT be a valid monster for use with "Deck Devastation Virus"...correct?Cropz said:
So the game can tell what the ATK of this face-down card is? I thought it couldn't do that unless it was face-up.anthonyj said:
Or are you saying that he will still be 1400 ATK when he goes to the Graveyard? Because if that were true, then Special Summoning him from the Graveyard with "Premature Burial" wouldn't bring out a 2800 ATK monster, it would bring out a 1400 ATK monster and I know that doesn't happen...
Oh, and Simon, I don't think he addressed whether it could be used for the cost of "Deck Devastation Virus", I think he just addressed whether it would be destroyed if it was activated by the opponent and you had one face-down.
Kyhotae said:
The ATK of Fusilier when he was tributed to summon Great Maju Garzett was 1400. Once he is in the graveyard he will reset to 2800. But Maju is not checking what the ATK was after it hits the graveyard, it is using the ATK of the monster at the time it is tributed.
You are correct that he was saying that a Fusilier set without tribute would be destroyed by Deck Devastation Virus (which means that he is still a 1400 ATK monster even though he is face-down on the field). The extension of that is that he also would be a 1400 ATK monster for purposes of determining if he could be used to activate Deck Devastation Virus and so that would also be "no, because he is a 1400 ATK monster".
kansashoops
New Member
I know the ruling on Fusilier says that his original attack is halved when he is set without tribute and then flipped face up, but the card text says that is halved when it is set with tribute:
That is, "This card can be... Set without Tribute. In that case, the original ATK/DEF of this card become halved." It doesn't say that it is halved when it is flipped face up. It says that is halved when it is summoned/set without tribute. Unless there is a specific ruling that states otherwise, I think you have to go by the card text and say that his original ATK for tribute purposes (Deck Devastation Virus, Great Maju Garzett, Mystik Wok) would be 1400, not 2800.
The ruling that says "If you Set "Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast" without Tribute, it has ATK 1400 and DEF 1000 when flipped face-up" doesn't say what its ATK/DEF were when it was face down. Some of you are interpreting this to mean: "If you Set Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast" without Tribute, [it has ATK 2800 and DEF 2000 while face down, and] it has ATK 1400 and DEF 1000 when flipped face-up." I would construe it to mean "If you Set Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast" without Tribute, [it has ATK 1400 and DEF 1000 while face down, and] it [still] has ATK 1400 and DEF 1000 when flipped face-up." Given the card text, I think that is the more reasonable interpretation. I think that first ruling was intended only to clarify that you can't make Fusilier 2800 ATK just by setting it and then flip-summoning it.
That is, "This card can be... Set without Tribute. In that case, the original ATK/DEF of this card become halved." It doesn't say that it is halved when it is flipped face up. It says that is halved when it is summoned/set without tribute. Unless there is a specific ruling that states otherwise, I think you have to go by the card text and say that his original ATK for tribute purposes (Deck Devastation Virus, Great Maju Garzett, Mystik Wok) would be 1400, not 2800.
The ruling that says "If you Set "Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast" without Tribute, it has ATK 1400 and DEF 1000 when flipped face-up" doesn't say what its ATK/DEF were when it was face down. Some of you are interpreting this to mean: "If you Set Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast" without Tribute, [it has ATK 2800 and DEF 2000 while face down, and] it has ATK 1400 and DEF 1000 when flipped face-up." I would construe it to mean "If you Set Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast" without Tribute, [it has ATK 1400 and DEF 1000 while face down, and] it [still] has ATK 1400 and DEF 1000 when flipped face-up." Given the card text, I think that is the more reasonable interpretation. I think that first ruling was intended only to clarify that you can't make Fusilier 2800 ATK just by setting it and then flip-summoning it.
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
Without any hard "ruling" to go either way, I still say that it is a Judgment Call. There is not enough support for either to be correct and either to be incorrect, and regardless of what JERP might say, if Konami doesnt give it to UDE to tell us, it doesnt apply, just like the Last Will ruling.
masterwoo0 said:
I understand where you're coming from with this. But as UDE has said nothing at all either way. And we do know how it works in Japan one might think that would be a better option. Kevin and Curtis might have the attitude that the game is what they make of it until told by Konami they are wrong. But do we really want to sink to their level?
The card text itself easily explains the card effect and condition. It is only the concept that a card cannot have an effect at all while face-down that has given rise to this idea. Since that has been shown to not be the case we should err on the side that has more supporting evidence, even if we have to look across the seas to do so.
Unfortunately i don't have all the available resources to put it all together, however the face-up ruling does not concretely illustrate that Fusilier Dragon is still at 2800/2000 when Set face-down without tribute.
This is about Tributing which can be a bit strange in certain cases, but i could see it either way.
I'll see if i can find more. If anything JERP can be used to spark discussion and debate even if UDE Judges dont acknowledge it as valid.
This is about Tributing which can be a bit strange in certain cases, but i could see it either way.
I'll see if i can find more. If anything JERP can be used to spark discussion and debate even if UDE Judges dont acknowledge it as valid.
krazykidpsx
New Member
the golden rule in all games is that CARDS overwrite written rules.
so Fusiler dragon can be set without tribute,
face-down cards are considered 0/0 No effect, No status, Nothing, they are blank cards.
but there are exceptions to the rule, thouse exceptions are Big Shield Gardna and so forth.
If you set Fusiller dragon the only person that knows it is fusiler dragon is ther person that set it. And its effect wont see it as a 1400/1000 untill it is flipped face up. The printed attackpower is 2800 so if you tribute it for DDV, the creature is not on the field it is in the graveyard, and that is were DDV says, "hey you see, told you it was a 2800."
what I think is wrong is the fact you can tribute face-down creatures for specific stuff. thats were it gets everybody confused.
what they should do is reverse that over to only Face-Up so that both players know and acknowledge that the Tribute is legal.
In this case only 1 player knows that it is legal / illegal depending on the circumstance.
so if you great maju a fusiler it would double 2800 if fusiler is face down because when great maju points the finger itll say, "see i told you it was 2800"
the card only has its value killed off while face-up on the field, not while its in hand, deck, RFP, or grave. and if somehow you got it to fusion deck, there wouldnt be either. lol
so Fusiler dragon can be set without tribute,
face-down cards are considered 0/0 No effect, No status, Nothing, they are blank cards.
but there are exceptions to the rule, thouse exceptions are Big Shield Gardna and so forth.
If you set Fusiller dragon the only person that knows it is fusiler dragon is ther person that set it. And its effect wont see it as a 1400/1000 untill it is flipped face up. The printed attackpower is 2800 so if you tribute it for DDV, the creature is not on the field it is in the graveyard, and that is were DDV says, "hey you see, told you it was a 2800."
what I think is wrong is the fact you can tribute face-down creatures for specific stuff. thats were it gets everybody confused.
what they should do is reverse that over to only Face-Up so that both players know and acknowledge that the Tribute is legal.
In this case only 1 player knows that it is legal / illegal depending on the circumstance.
so if you great maju a fusiler it would double 2800 if fusiler is face down because when great maju points the finger itll say, "see i told you it was 2800"
the card only has its value killed off while face-up on the field, not while its in hand, deck, RFP, or grave. and if somehow you got it to fusion deck, there wouldnt be either. lol
krazykidpsx
New Member
the number is checked once the creature is in the grave preaty much is how ive been seeing it lately.
before i thought it was imidiate but since sacraficed creatures arnt on the field but in the grave, i would say that the effect looks at the creature when its in the grave not the instant it sacs it.
before i thought it was imidiate but since sacraficed creatures arnt on the field but in the grave, i would say that the effect looks at the creature when its in the grave not the instant it sacs it.
krazykidpsx said:
Again I'll restate. The ATK is 1400 while it is face-down. I know we don't have an official statement from UDE to this as of yet, but trust me when we finally get one it is going to say the ATK is 1400. It will not be able to cost to activate Deck Devastation, a Great Maju will only be 2800 and it will indeed be destroyed by the opponent's Deck Devastation Virus. Mystik Wok will also only yield you 1400 life. If Mystik Wok checked the value only once the card was in the grave the card would not work in any way like it currently does.
krazykidpsx
New Member
If it is let it be... The problem here is going into a brawl with 100% confidence and comming up short.
non of us want to come up short, but I dont mind if your right. If your right then good great. more power to you right? If im rght... what? nobody will care. So again, if the case is that its 1400 then koo. its 14k Ill go by it.
but look at how many rulings contradict each other becuase Konami doesnt know what they are doing.
non of us want to come up short, but I dont mind if your right. If your right then good great. more power to you right? If im rght... what? nobody will care. So again, if the case is that its 1400 then koo. its 14k Ill go by it.
but look at how many rulings contradict each other becuase Konami doesnt know what they are doing.
I'll just throw out my opinion. =)
None of us disagree that a set non-tributed Fusilier will be destroyed via Deck Devastation Virus.
You set a Fusilier on the field. You've established that the monster has been placed on the field face down without tribute. Fusilier's effect is continuous and only works while face up. We so far agree with all of this.
This situation reminds me a little like if I played Soul Exchange and used Metamorphosis on your face down monster, but we know you can't do that anyway. However, you can use Metamorphosis on your own face down monster. Why? Because you know the level of that monster.
The point I'm getting at is this. I'm saying you can't tribute a set non-tribute Fusilier for Deck Devastation Virus because you, the controller of both DDV and Fusilier, know the stats of your face down monsters. The whole Soul Exchange v.s. Metamorphosis ruling we've discussed a long time ago is a little proof of that.
So would you be able to tribute a set non-tribute Fusilier for Deck Devastation Virus? No, just remember the Soul Exchange v.s. Metamorphosis discussion most of us were in.
Please keep in mind, it's just my opinion. =)
None of us disagree that a set non-tributed Fusilier will be destroyed via Deck Devastation Virus.
You set a Fusilier on the field. You've established that the monster has been placed on the field face down without tribute. Fusilier's effect is continuous and only works while face up. We so far agree with all of this.
This situation reminds me a little like if I played Soul Exchange and used Metamorphosis on your face down monster, but we know you can't do that anyway. However, you can use Metamorphosis on your own face down monster. Why? Because you know the level of that monster.
The point I'm getting at is this. I'm saying you can't tribute a set non-tribute Fusilier for Deck Devastation Virus because you, the controller of both DDV and Fusilier, know the stats of your face down monsters. The whole Soul Exchange v.s. Metamorphosis ruling we've discussed a long time ago is a little proof of that.
So would you be able to tribute a set non-tribute Fusilier for Deck Devastation Virus? No, just remember the Soul Exchange v.s. Metamorphosis discussion most of us were in.
Please keep in mind, it's just my opinion. =)
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
Ummmm.... I do, but that's neither here nor there, as I would rather wait for a Official interpetation on his effect while set face-down without tribute.Tkwiget said:
I feel I have said all I need say on my part, so it's really not worth more debate from my end.
Swartzstrom
New Member
ChaosMachine said:
Since when could you use a Trap card on a Face-Down Monster, if it didn't specify a Face-Down Monster?
My understanding is that it's last of in activation is the first off in the chain. Vampire Lord would technincally still be face-down when Deck Devastation Virus is activated, would it not?