StephenTheDarkBeing
New Member
Concerning cards with this rule, is it possible to flip summon such cards twice in the same turn, just so long as you leave it face-up at the end of that Main Phase?
"You can flip this card into face-down Defense Position once per turn..."
- Thread starter StephenTheDarkBeing
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Mazera DeVille
New Member
It's effect flips it face down, but you can flip it face up again if you choose but only once in the turn, after that it would remain face up until your next turn.
If it is already face down, you can flip it face use then use its effect ot flip it face down again, but you cannot change it's position again manually until your next turn.
You can use Spells, Traps and Monster effects to change the position before, after or during this, but you are only allowed 1 chance to flip down and 1 chance to flip up
Hope that helps
If it is already face down, you can flip it face use then use its effect ot flip it face down again, but you cannot change it's position again manually until your next turn.
You can use Spells, Traps and Monster effects to change the position before, after or during this, but you are only allowed 1 chance to flip down and 1 chance to flip up
Hope that helps
Kenjiblade
New Member
In short, it is never possible to Flip Summon the same monster twice in the same turn. Ever.
Tonylaudat
New Member
Please correct me if I am wrong, but can't you flip it down a second time, since the effect of the monster is reset upon it being flipped face down. The offical rulings state that I can use Chiron the Mage's or The Creator's effect twice in the same turn is they are flipped face down with Book of Moon since their effect are reset when they are flipped face down.
While it does seem a little contradictory, monsters that self-flip back to face-down defense do not have that ability reset by being flipped face down. It's similar to a monster that was special summoned and then flipped face down and back up. It would still be destroyed by the ignition effect of Jowgen the Spiritualist (being flipped face down doesn't reset that condition).
Tonylaudat
New Member
I would have to disagree. I've checked www,yugioh-card.com under Chiron the Mage, and the following rulings for Chiron the Mage
"Discarding 1 Spell Card is a cost to activate this effect.
If you activate the effect of "Chiron the Mage", then flip it face-down, then flip it face-up all in the same turn, you can activate its effect again.
The restriction that you can only activate this effect once per turn is a condition, not an effect. So if "Skill Drain" is on the field, you can pay the cost once per turn (for no effect), but not pay the cost continuously in the same turn."
Here it says that the once per turn limit on its use of its ability is "a condition, not an effect. Yet it also says that If you flip it down, and then flip it up in the same turn (after activating its effect), then you are allowed to use its effect again. The means that the condition limiting Chiron's effect to only being used once per turn must be reset upon Chiron being flipped face down (otherwise these two rulings for Chiron would appear to contradict themselves).
If this is the case, how are monster the flip themselves face down any different in this reguard? In both cases, the monster's ability was used, and then the monster was flipped face down (in one case by its own effect, in the other by an external card effect), and then flipped face up. Now, if for Chiron the Mage, "The restriction that you can only activate this effect once per turn is a condition, not an effect." and it is reset upon being flipped face down, how can the same not be true in an identical situtation expect for the fact that the monster flipped itself face down?
"Discarding 1 Spell Card is a cost to activate this effect.
If you activate the effect of "Chiron the Mage", then flip it face-down, then flip it face-up all in the same turn, you can activate its effect again.
The restriction that you can only activate this effect once per turn is a condition, not an effect. So if "Skill Drain" is on the field, you can pay the cost once per turn (for no effect), but not pay the cost continuously in the same turn."
Here it says that the once per turn limit on its use of its ability is "a condition, not an effect. Yet it also says that If you flip it down, and then flip it up in the same turn (after activating its effect), then you are allowed to use its effect again. The means that the condition limiting Chiron's effect to only being used once per turn must be reset upon Chiron being flipped face down (otherwise these two rulings for Chiron would appear to contradict themselves).
If this is the case, how are monster the flip themselves face down any different in this reguard? In both cases, the monster's ability was used, and then the monster was flipped face down (in one case by its own effect, in the other by an external card effect), and then flipped face up. Now, if for Chiron the Mage, "The restriction that you can only activate this effect once per turn is a condition, not an effect." and it is reset upon being flipped face down, how can the same not be true in an identical situtation expect for the fact that the monster flipped itself face down?
Tony, lets not get confused here.
You should not compare a game rule, with an effect restriction.
By game rules, any monster on the field can only have 1 manual Battle Position change per turn. There is no way to "reset" that, fliping face-down or otherwise.
Forget about UDE's wording in the ruling, they have no idea what a "condition" or "effect" is. This is simply an effect restriction, and is set as soon as you choose to activate it. One-per-turn restrictions such as these are lifted as soon as the monster leaves the field, or becomes unknown (ie. flipping it face-down).
Hope that helps
EDIT: Ooopps i didn't fully read you question... sorry.
In reality, you are correct, it should be reset. Konami/UDE simply decided that you couldn't use it twice in one turn, there is no actual logic that you can use.
The only "real" answer would be to say, that because the effect specifically deals with a Battle Position change it was a measure put in to avoid abuse.
You should not compare a game rule, with an effect restriction.
By game rules, any monster on the field can only have 1 manual Battle Position change per turn. There is no way to "reset" that, fliping face-down or otherwise.
Forget about UDE's wording in the ruling, they have no idea what a "condition" or "effect" is. This is simply an effect restriction, and is set as soon as you choose to activate it. One-per-turn restrictions such as these are lifted as soon as the monster leaves the field, or becomes unknown (ie. flipping it face-down).
Hope that helps
EDIT: Ooopps i didn't fully read you question... sorry.
In reality, you are correct, it should be reset. Konami/UDE simply decided that you couldn't use it twice in one turn, there is no actual logic that you can use.
The only "real" answer would be to say, that because the effect specifically deals with a Battle Position change it was a measure put in to avoid abuse.
It would seem that if you had Guardian Sphinx (for example) in face up attack mode when you start your turn (not the turn you first played it), then you'd be able to flip it down via its effect, then flip summon it, then fli it face down again via its effect (as the effect would be reset by being flipped face down). You obviously couldn't flip summon it again.
And now Steve will tell me that I'm wrong, as I shouldn't discuss card rulings after work in the morning
And now Steve will tell me that I'm wrong, as I shouldn't discuss card rulings after work in the morning
Actually, that would be wrong as stated a few times already. A monster that flips himself face down with his own effect cannot do it a second time. Basically his effect does not/cannot reset his effect if that makes sense.
Now, here's a gray zone question to really muck this debate: Let's say Guardian Sphinx is face up. You use the effect to flip it face down. You then flip summon it. In response they Book of Moon it. You then Book of Taiyou it. You attack. Main Phase 2 now. Did Book of Moon reset the effect (as it usually does for most effects) so you CAN re-activate the effect or would the condition of only using the effect once per turn (which was done) stay regardless. I can see the debate both ways but I figure this should add some fuel to the fire...
Now, here's a gray zone question to really muck this debate: Let's say Guardian Sphinx is face up. You use the effect to flip it face down. You then flip summon it. In response they Book of Moon it. You then Book of Taiyou it. You attack. Main Phase 2 now. Did Book of Moon reset the effect (as it usually does for most effects) so you CAN re-activate the effect or would the condition of only using the effect once per turn (which was done) stay regardless. I can see the debate both ways but I figure this should add some fuel to the fire...
That wasn't the point. Besides, his effect activated in the first place. There would be no monsters on the opponent's side of the field when you Taiyou-ed it anyway.
Basically the question was this: We know the effect won't reset the effect. Would Book of Moon (or Tsukuyomi) reset that particular effect. Or is that one of the few "once per turn" conditions that can't be reset by being flipped face down/face up (or removed from play/returned to play).
Basically the question was this: We know the effect won't reset the effect. Would Book of Moon (or Tsukuyomi) reset that particular effect. Or is that one of the few "once per turn" conditions that can't be reset by being flipped face down/face up (or removed from play/returned to play).
I'm a little confused here. But being that I've only got 12minutes and 35 seconds before this computer logs me off let me ask: Why would fliping a "re-flippable" back face down reset its effect?
"You can flip this card into face-down Defense Position once per turn..."
Forgive me if I'm wrong but doesn't this wording suggest that it is not a resetable(word?) effect? I could see if it were removed from the field how you might get to flip it again. But what point would there be in saying "once per turn" if using the effect resets the effect?
"You can flip this card into face-down Defense Position once per turn..."
Forgive me if I'm wrong but doesn't this wording suggest that it is not a resetable(word?) effect? I could see if it were removed from the field how you might get to flip it again. But what point would there be in saying "once per turn" if using the effect resets the effect?
You mean like Chiron the Mage or The Creator or Reshef the Dark Being that all also say you can only use the effect once per turn but if you flip them down and up you can use it again...
Well yes, I know that seems a bit silly. But the effect of the card is to flip it back face-down. If the effect reset wouldn't the term "once per turn" would be a superfluous statement?
But the effect of the card is to flip it back face-down. If the effect reset wouldn't the term "once per turn" would be a superfluous statement?roadhouse007
New Member
That does make sense. Otherwise you would be saying that, in a way, cards that allow you to flip themsevles face down once a turn are resetting their own condition and, like was said earlier in the thread, would be heavily abused. Think of how broken insects could be (I mean Swarm of Locusts and Swarm of Scarabs). If you had both of these on the field, you could clear your opponents field in a turn!
It almost seems like some rulings are in place so that certain cards do not get abused due to their wording. Otherwise, certain cards would see a lot more usage if the rulings were different.
It almost seems like some rulings are in place so that certain cards do not get abused due to their wording. Otherwise, certain cards would see a lot more usage if the rulings were different.
But like I said... would Book of Moon reset that effect as well?
roadhouse007
New Member
But there are other cards which state that the effect can be used once per turn, but if you use tsuki or BoM and then flip summon them (after using the effect once), you can do it again.
I think the reason that the cards in question don't reset is because of the potential abuse, like I said before.
For instance, take Golem Sentry. At the FET sneak preview, 1800 was a pretty nice defense for a monster. If it were attacked and flipped face up, it would have allowed for the player to flip it face down (resetting), flip summon, using its effect, then flip face down. That does make the card a little more useful.
I think the reason that the cards in question don't reset is because of the potential abuse, like I said before.
For instance, take Golem Sentry. At the FET sneak preview, 1800 was a pretty nice defense for a monster. If it were attacked and flipped face up, it would have allowed for the player to flip it face down (resetting), flip summon, using its effect, then flip face down. That does make the card a little more useful.