About Bait Doll

A

antilegend

New Member
Bait Doll
(Labyrinth of Nightmare)
Force the activation of 1 face-down Trap Card. If the timing of the activation of the Trap Card is incorrect, negate the effect and destroy it. If it is not a Trap Card, it is returned to its original position. After this card is activated, it is placed into the Deck (not the Graveyard). Then shuffle the Deck.

1) If Bait Doll did not force the activation of a card (the card is chained, destroyed by MST, etc.), did it return to the deck?
2) You can activate Bait Doll on YOUR OWN trap card so you don't have to pay the cost, right? (e.g. Return from the Other Dimension)
3) If you activate Bait Doll on a face-up Trap card that is set previously in the same turn (e.g. Opponent's Trap set by Dust Turnado or you own Trap set previously), will it be considered "Incorrect Timing" and get destroyed?

Thx for the answers~
 
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"Card that would do nothing"? Wouldn't a WoRL with 0LP paid for it stop unboosted TER & Relinquished etc... though? :p




The epitamy of nit picking I know but couldn't resist! lol
And I will remind you that it has been ruled that monsters with 0 attack each can destroy each other in combat, just like with any other pairing of same attack monsters.
 
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Raijinili said:
Actually, you wouldn't usually be able to pay 0 LP. That's because, if you remember, you can't activate a card that would do nothing (barring negation and stuff). So activating it and paying nothing would give you a card that does nothing.

Also, the JERP explains it as you being obligated to pay something as a cost. Similar to "Rope of Life", I would say.
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Maybe i did get ahead of myself there....lol

I'm trying to wrap my brain around the logic from the ruling. If that was the case, then WoRL should be destroyed by Bait Doll.
 
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Raijinili said:
0x1000 = 0

Isn't it?
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Normally a multiple of a number would be that number times an integer, which if this were the case, you would be able to pay negative amounts of Life Points, or gain life points for Wall of Revealing Light:

Ever been back in Elementary school to find the least common multiple of 2 numbers? Well if multiplying by an integer counted (like many dictionaries erroneuously state) there wouldn't be a "lowest" as you could just keep going lower and lower through negative numbers.
(LCM of X and Y would be = X[(-y)(infinity)] or reverse x and y) So when you here least common multiple, "multiple" means those number multiplied by Natural Numbers. (Positive Integers)

Another Definition of multiple involves division, by both of its bases to get a number with no remainder/decimal. X/0 is "undefined" (it is not infinity as some people mistakenly believe)
 
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Which is why there's a definition for "Natural Numbers". :p
I honestly don't know whether or not Bait Doll should work to allow trap activations without paying for them, think we really need an offical stance before all the spin-off questions will have any hope of being answered.
 
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Raijinili said:
0x1000 = 0

Isn't it?

And it's not destroyed because, as I said before, it's forced into a special case.
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Then the question for that particular ruling is...why?

If varitible cost is not the reason, then why this particular card? If it was Skill Drain for instance, it would be destroyed. The only difference seems to be that one has a varitable cost and the other has a fixed cost.

So why is WoRL any different?

The way i see it, in the case of WoRL (as opposed to Skill Drain), the cost is not being paid in order to necessarily "get" an effect, it is simply a number used to determine "what" the final outcome of the effect will be. In most cases the cost is paid in order to simply recieve an effect, which is why they are negated and destroyed if no cost is paid.

To put it visually, you are determining how high the wall will be, based on how much you wanna pay, so if you pay 0, the wall is completely down. That's where i could see it being special.

Interesting indeed...
 
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How would paying 0 fulfill the cost? Not paying anything doesn't count as paying. Just like you can't activate Serial Spell without cards in your hand (you can't send all 0 of your cards in hand to the graveyard). The ruling on Wall of Revealing Light is either a) Wrong (wow we've never seen the judge's list make a mistake on a card ruling before) or b) It must mean that Bait Doll will allow the activation of a trap without requiring the cost. Now we might get a clarification that the trap doesn't actually activate and in the case of continuous traps they remain on the field meaninglessly, but we really are going to have to get some kind of further official ruling on this because paying 0 life points is quite obviously not acceptable to fulfill the activation cost.
 
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anthonyj said:
Not paying anything doesn't count as paying. Just like you can't activate Serial Spell without cards in your hand (you can't send all 0 of your cards in hand to the graveyard).
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As I said, special case.
anthonyj said:
Now we might get a clarification that the trap doesn't actually activate and in the case of continuous traps they remain on the field meaninglessly
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Bait Doll says to activate it, so that's not likely.
anthonyj said:
but we really are going to have to get some kind of further official ruling on this because paying 0 life points is quite obviously not acceptable to fulfill the activation cost.
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Pretty arrogant to try to define a ruling mechanic like that. I don't think I've even tried that, but then again my arrogance has gone pretty far.

Anyway, I already gave an explanation as to how it's a special case, which is more than I can say about why Aqua Chorus can't activate in the Damage Step.
 
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Raijinili said:
Anyway, I already gave an explanation as to how it's a special case, which is more than I can say about why Aqua Chorus can't activate in the Damage Step.
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Maybe that's because you can activate it whenever you want, even if there aren't 2 or more of the same monsters on the field. It's uncertain as to whether it will actually increase ATK and DEF, because it doesn't check for 2 or more of the same monsters on activation, so it can't be activated in the Damage Step. You're just activating a Trap Card. Its effect kicks in later.
 
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Maybe, and it's just a long shot, maybe it's because there are still monsters with 0 attack, and they can still attack even though the damage they inflict may come back to them.

Monsters like Mucus Yolk, Catnipped Kitty, etc... You could actually declare an attack, then increase their attack power in the Damage Step.
 
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Raijinili said:
Pretty arrogant to try to define a ruling mechanic like that. I don't think I've even tried that, but then again my arrogance has gone pretty far.

Anyway, I already gave an explanation as to how it's a special case, which is more than I can say about why Aqua Chorus can't activate in the Damage Step.
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This isn't trying to define a ruling mechanic. The mechanic has already been defined. You can't activate a card with an activation cost and then not pay the cost. You can't activate Skull Lair and then not remove a monster from the graveyard, you can't activate Bark of Dark Ruler and then pay 0 life points to reduce the opposing monster by nothing.

If this is a special case for WORL then that should get clarified as such. Wouldn't be the first time BKSS has stuck us with nonsensical rulings. Won't be the last. But I'm pretty tired of the hard questions being dodged for months or years because it isn't a PRIORITY to get us an answer.

I'm amazed the Judge's List goes to the trouble to answer questions like Direct Attackers vs. Divine Wrath (because continuous effects are hard to grasp) or Magic Cylinder vs. Asura Priest (which was answered by Ruling #11 for Magic Cylinder) but can't answer Last Will questions which we've got obvious conflicts with rulings between TCG and OCG. Or after a year give us any further info about Priority. The question on Bait Doll was sent in more than a month ago from this thread.

We shouldn't expect "instant" answers but I've got to say UDE is not getting it done. No matter who is holding the yardstick.
 
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This isn't trying to define a ruling mechanic. The mechanic has already been defined. You can't activate a card with an activation cost and then not pay the cost. You can't activate Skull Lair and then not remove a monster from the graveyard, you can't activate Bark of Dark Ruler and then pay 0 life points to reduce the opposing monster by nothing.
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You can activate Skull Lair and not remove a monster from the graveyard, and you can use Bait Doll on Bark of Dark Ruler, which will stop you from paying the cost. So no, I don't think you've proved that the mechanic is defined.
If this is a special case for WORL then that should get clarified as such. Wouldn't be the first time BKSS has stuck us with nonsensical rulings. Won't be the last. But I'm pretty tired of the hard questions being dodged for months or years because it isn't a PRIORITY to get us an answer.
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It was clarified as such. We have a ruling saying that Bait Doll won't destroy Wall of Revealing Light. Just like we have a ruling saying that Last Turn's only event at resolution is the sending of cards to the graveyard.
I'm amazed the Judge's List goes to the trouble to answer questions like Direct Attackers vs. Divine Wrath (because continuous effects are hard to grasp) or Magic Cylinder vs. Asura Priest (which was answered by Ruling #11 for Magic Cylinder) but can't answer Last Will questions which we've got obvious conflicts with rulings between TCG and OCG.
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As it happens, the ruling of Magic Cylinder VS Asura Priest IS a conflict in rulings between the TCG and OCG. So there.
 
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Raijinili said:
You can activate Skull Lair and not remove a monster from the graveyard, and you can use Bait Doll on Bark of Dark Ruler, which will stop you from paying the cost. So no, I don't think you've proved that the mechanic is defined.
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I'm not talking about turning the card over I'm speaking of "using the effect". You can't activate the effect of Skull Lair and then choose not to remove any monsters. This would be analogous to paying 0 life points for WORL.
And Bark of Dark Ruler would have no effect if activated by Bait Doll and thus be destroyed. That is a simple timing issue and has nothing to do with paying the cost or not. I was speaking in game terms of not being able to "pay 0".
 
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Raijinili said:
It was clarified as such. We have a ruling saying that Bait Doll won't destroy Wall of Revealing Light. Just like we have a ruling saying that Last Turn's only event at resolution is the sending of cards to the graveyard.
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It wasn't clarified "as such". There is a ruling that it happens. You yourself said that only proved that you didn't pay and it didn't do anything so it had no bearing on whether other trap cards activated without cost would work (although the ruling on Skill Drain would suggest that it does.) A ruling to "clarify" would be to actually state the mechanics of Bait Doll and how it operated and that when it interacted with WORL it was "just weird". Thus actually explaining what would happen when Raigeki Break or Elemental Burst were activated by Bait Doll and why it works that way or if it does allow for the effect to work without the cost with normal traps.
 
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Raijinili said:
As it happens, the ruling of Magic Cylinder VS Asura Priest IS a conflict in rulings between the TCG and OCG. So there.
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Well one more piece of not here like there. We keep hearing about how the rules are being clarified and will work the same. We just aren't seeing that happen. If OCG allowed Asura Priest to attack the same monster again after Cylinder what is the ruling regarding Diffusion Wave-Motion vs. Magic Cylinder in Japan?
 
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Well I'm just curious. Can't you activate Bait Doll on your own traps? Even though you just set them the rulings say you can't activate them, but what about a spell or trap? I heard since you just set them that the timing is off...but that makes no sense at all......

this makes my head hurt....
 
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Inuzuka Kiba said:
Well I'm just curious. Can't you activate Bait Doll on your own traps? Even though you just set them the rulings say you can't activate them, but what about a spell or trap? I heard since you just set them that the timing is off...but that makes no sense at all......

this makes my head hurt....
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Yes, you most certainly can use "Bait Doll" on your own Trap Cards. However, as you already stated, if it's the same turn as it was set, then it's considered to be incorrect timing and the Trap Card will be destroyed. If you wait until your next turn, then you could use "Bait Doll" to force the activation of one of your own Trap Cards (like "Skill Drain") if you wanted to.
 
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