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Which is why I said it is likely viewed as a condition and not merely a continuous effect (like Doriado). After all, it will already be face up in the Graveyard when you tribute it. So tributing a face-down Kaiser Sea Horse for BEWD or Guardian Angel Joan should be very allowable. I'm not even sure it would be Anubisable (which if it is considered a condition it wouldn't be). Of course they could say something about that later so wait and see, but I'm fairly certain that that is the case.
 
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You can't initiate a Tribute Summon of an 7+ Star monster unless you know for sure that you have 2 tributes. It doesn't matter if you find out after Seahorse is in the Graveyard.

It is a face-up effect, that is not active in the Graveyard.
 
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novastar said:
You can't initiate a Tribute Summon of an 7+ Star monster unless you know for sure that you have 2 tributes. It doesn't matter if you find out after Seahorse is in the Graveyard.

It is a face-up effect, that is not active in the Graveyard.
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But since a tribute summon is not a targeting effect you don't announce what you intend to summon until after the tributed card has gone to the graveyard.
 
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Wow, you don't know how HAPPY the battle position mechanics change makes me, especially after that huge thread a couple months ago, where I was pouring my soul out as to manual position changes ar supposed to be able to be done once per turn.

It looks like some people really DO listen.

o/`Faery tales, can come true. It can happen to you, if you're young at heart. o/`

Pardon me while I go print this up, then start dancing my rump off! I've got a lot of people to show tomorrow!
 
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The game must know ahead of time before you pay cost, that the available cost is there.

The way i see it, a face-down Kaiser Seahorse does not give the proper information. You and the game know which monster you are attempting to Tribute Summon, so you can't just tribute your only monster in hopes that it is a "double tribute" monster.

This is not like activating an effect. You are manually choosing which monster from your Hand you are going to summon, so the cost MUST be proper prior to it being paid. You don't "resolve without effect" Tribute Summons.

I definately could be wrong, but its my thoughts. I can't find a ruling either way.
 
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Here's one other thing I was curious about. In the whole Cyber Jar/Desert Sunlight flipping madness (no I'm not swearing back there 8^D) they mention chaining a Book of Moon in the mix...

Now last I checked, except for a few circumstances, you can't activate a spell/trap card that is not going to have any effect. At the time the Desert Sunlight/Book of Moon chain is started, the Cyber Jar is face down, so a Book of Moon would resolve without effect at this point, making it illegal to activate at that point in time.

Or is it the fact that Desert Sunlight has started the chain that we know that Cyber is going to be Flipped up? Then again, we resolve chains backwards, so Book of Moon would resolve first (ignoring the second Desert Sunlight at this point) which would make it illegal again.

Or am I _COMPLETELY_ missing the boat on this one. Its been known to happen often 8^D
 
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Well i checked, and the JERP states that Kaiser Seahorse can infact be used while face-down, so i'm probably wrong.

However, the root of the problem here is, as i've stated before, that the "Tribute" mechanic is inconsistant.

For instance, if Kaiser is face-up and Skill Drain is active, you cannot use him as 2 tributes, but if he is face-down, you can. That is inconsistant, as you are basically stating that there are 2 different points at which the effect is used and attributes are checked, one for face-up and one for face-down.

It also illustrates that the tribute mechanic does NOT neccesarily check the card in the Graveyard, otherwise you would be able to use it with Skill Drain while the monster was face-up.

There are many other inconsistancies here, but i'm not going to go through them.
 
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Dillie-O said:
Here's one other thing I was curious about. In the whole Cyber Jar/Desert Sunlight flipping madness (no I'm not swearing back there 8^D) they mention chaining a Book of Moon in the mix...
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I'm totally up the same creek as you are on this one. "Rules is rules" and I shall follow them, but without an errata to Book of Moon, this makes absolutely no sense at all. There is no guarantee that Desert Sunlight's effect will actually resolve, which would generally mean that you could not chain Book of Moon to it.

The implication here is ... annoying. Does this mean that I could legally activate Book of Moon while Light of Intervention is on the field, because I am planning on chaining a Mystical Space Typhoon to it (to destory LoI)?

This is the first truly frustrating thing I've seen come out of this rulings sweep so far....
 
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It seems that the tribute mechanic itself treats face-down monsters differently than face-up's.

- If the monster you wish to tribute is face-up, and the cost requires certain specs or conditions, then it must be correct prior to paying the cost.

- If you tribute a face-down, the requirements are checked after the card becomes known.

I think is a very "loose" way of doing things, and should not be allowed, but in gathering all the relevent rulings it seems to be pointing in that direction. It's not perfect, but seems to be the general idea.

Having said that, to say that tributes are always checked when the card hits the Graveyard (or RFP) doesn't seem right. It just seems "timed" that way for face-down's, similar to Slate Warrior's effect being "timed" as a Graveyard Effect even though technically it is not.

I do agree to take a wait and see attitude right now, with the overhaul going on here.
 
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densetsu_x said:
Well, I'm still saying it may be considered more a condition than an effect... it which case it may not be negatable (which then has me wondering if Skill Drain would "negate" "Elemental Mistress Doriado" but that's for another thread altogether and I'd rather wait for them to say "we're done with our rulings" first.
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I have to agree with the "condition" argument. It's like the effect of say, Cyber Harpie Lady. It makes absolutely no difference if it's face-up/face-down, in your hand, on the field, removed from play, in your side deck, or even if Skill Drain is active. It's ALWAYS treated as Harpie Lady.

Although ... to me "condition" implies "lingering effect", so perhaps there is just no adequate terminology for this type of thing. It just "is". Or perhaps it's just "treated as", which is more accurate.

The whole argument of trying to fit Kaiser Sea Horse et al into a known game mechanic may be completely moot, as it's very possible we've never even heard of what this particular mechanic is actually called ...

(as d_x has mentioned, there's also nothing to say that we're not going to get this information from UDE during this little rulings and rule changes update. I was just in the mood for adding 2 cents somewhere)

edit: Is there anything out there that says you CAN'T use Kaiser Sea Horse's effect if Skill Drain is on the field? I don't see any here ... which is somewhat telling in and of itself. I don't think that's ever even come up in any of my duels before ... hmmmmmm. A long shot, but hmmmmmmm nonetheless.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
So now we're going to be able to taget something without it being legal on activation as long as its legal on resolution?


FUBAR.
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Yes, i'm not a fan of this idea either. A target should also be legal prior to selecting it.
 
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